Welcome back, friends, to the penultimate installment of the Oathbringer reread. It’s been a long ride, but we hope you’ve all enjoyed it! This week ties up a handful of loose ends, and sets the stage for events to progress over the next (in-world) year before Rhythm of War picks up. We’ll check in on most of our favorite characters to see where they are and what they’re doing, now that Odium’s anticipated “easy victory” has fallen apart and his forces have withdrawn.
Paige and I will wrap up the last chapter, with the Epilogue and Ars Arcanum to come next week. My thanks, again, to Paige for stepping up to help out! Lyndsey is still up to her ears in face masks, both for hospitals and for personal use. The last count I saw was over 250, and all this has been her donation of both time and materials. She may not respond to every message, but if you’d like to drop her a line of encouragement (that link is for Facebook), I think she’d enjoy knowing her work is appreciated by more than those who receive the masks.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin, Taravangian, Shallan, Palona, Moash, Dalinar
WHEN: 1174.2.8.2—10.5 (Days 87-100 of Oathbringer) This begins the day after the Battle of Thaylen Field, and ends the day of Adolin and Shallan’s wedding.
WHERE: Southern Alethkar, Urithiru, Kholinar
Kaladin falls all the way to the southern coast of Alethkar, where he finds his and Shallan’s squires, escaped from the fall of Kholinar, with little Gavinor. Back in Urithiru, a stupid day brings Taravangian a visit and a bargain with Odium. Meanwhile, as the coalition leaders debate upcoming strategy, Adolin refuses Dalinar’s attempt to make him King of Alethkar; shortly thereafter Palona and Sebarial reflect the general sense of worry when Jasnah walks in as Queen. In Kholinar, Moash is transferred from rubble-smasher to Honorblade-holder. Back in Urithiru, Shallan prepares for her wedding, and is surprised by the arrival of her brothers as a “gift” from Mraize. The chapter ends with Dalinar hand-writing the preface and the title page of his memoir.
Beginnings
Title: A Debt Repaid
Rock had insisted that Dalinar take Oathbringer back. A debt repaid, the Windrunner had explained.
A: Even though Dalinar really doesn’t want it, and can’t possibly use it, I love the way this comes around from The Way of Kings. Long ago (well, long ago for us, like 9+ years, though in-book it’s only a little over 3 Rosharan months) Dalinar traded this same Blade for the entirety of Sadeas’s bridge crews. Now it comes back to him courtesy of the Windrunners who developed from those bridgemen.
P: I love that Rock returned Oathbringer to Dalinar, since he won’t take it for himself. It does call to mind that powerful scene from WoK, and Dalinar’s incredible trade for the bridgemen. Gives me shivers, it does. And w00t! I named this final chapter! I’m so happy!
Heralds:
Battar, the Counsellor, patron of Elsecallers, divine attributes Wise and Careful
Jezrien, Herald of Kings, the King, patron of Windrunners, divine attributes Protecting and Leading
Paliah, the Scholar, patron of Truthwatchers, divine attributes Learned and Giving
Vedel, the Healer, patron of Edgedancers, divine attributes Loving and Healing
A: Why these four, for the final chapter? The obvious answer for Battar is Queen Jasnah; could it also be indicative of my theory in Stories & Songs? Jezrien has plenty of referents: Kaladin Windrunner retrieving the rest of the Kholinar team, the monarchy of Alethkar, Dalinar’s leadership in general, and ::sniff:: the bestowing of his Honorblade on that wretch Moash. Pailiah is a little tougher, but I think this must reflect the way Renarin Truthwatcher messes with the Diagram and Odium’s ability to see the future. I suppose that as the Scholar, she could also be a subtle nod to Dalinar’s memoir-writing. Finally, Vedel, and here I’ll admit I’m baffled. There’s no healing, no known Edgedancer, and as far as I know there’s no appearance by the Herald herself. (Unless I’ve got it backwards on that theory below…) Maybe she’s here for Adolin, as a sign of things to come? I dunno.
Icon: Kholin Glyphpair, which usually denotes a Dalinar POV chapter; in this case I suspect that despite the number of POVs, the scene with Dalinar writing the opening of Oathbringer is the critical factor.
Epigraph:
Yes, I began my journey alone, and I ended it alone.
But that does not mean that I walked alone.
—From The Way of Kings, postscript
A: I’ve kind of… not talked about the last few epigraphs much, because as individual statements I couldn’t figure out what to say. Now I’m going to quote the entire section and address it as a block:
As I began my journey, I was challenged to defend why I insisted on traveling alone. They called it irresponsible. An avoidance of duty and obligation.
Those who said this made an enormous mistake of assumption.
If the journey itself is indeed the most important piece, rather than the destination itself, then I traveled not to avoid duty—but to seek it.
It becomes the responsibility of every man, upon realizing he lacks the truth, to seek it out.
Yes, I began my journey alone, and I ended it alone.
But that does not mean that I walked alone.
A: Aaaand… now that I put it all together, what more can I say about it? But of course, I’ll try.
In context of what (little) we know about Nohadon, it is remarkable to consider a king setting off on a fairly long journey, on foot and alone. You can imagine that his advisors were not best pleased by his decision, and framed their opposition in all the ways they thought would most appeal to his sense of responsibility. They just didn’t understand him very well.
It’s also worth reflecting on this under our current circumstances; right now, many of us are physically “walking alone” or in the company of only immediate family, as we’re in some form of lockdown or quarantine. In this journey of ours, though, we are not walking alone. If you need encouragement in this time of isolation, reach out to this community; we’re here.
P: I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Hit me up on Messenger if you want to chat. I will respond. ::smooches to the Sanderfans::
Stories & Songs
Adrotagia and Dukar … ignored Maben, the room servant, who felt Taravangian’s forehead, as he’d been coughing lately.
A: Call me paranoid, but any time I see people ignoring someone who is around a lot, I start to think that person is more significant than anyone thinks. As I’ve mentioned before, I have a long-standing theory that Dova, Taravangian’s assistant who they think is Battar, is actually Vedel. (It’s a theory about how the Heralds all seem to be doing the opposite of their Role and their Divine Attributes. I think I talked about it last week.) Anyway, what’s the possibility that Maben is actually Battar? The Counsellor, now simply ordered around as a servant?
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
P: I bow to your superior knowledge on this theory. I’m down.
A: Heh. I wouldn’t call it “knowledge,” exactly… I just like to ponder these things, and I come up with some interesting correlations. If half of them are correct, I’ll be surprised!
“Would you close the balcony doors again, gemheart?” he asked her. “The sunlight is distracting me from the other light.”
… As Navani shut the balcony doors, he closed his eyes and felt the warmth of a distant, unseen light.
A: We’ve seen this light before, at the end of Words of Radiance, and we’ve never gotten an answer as to what it really is. All we have is “RAFO” and a lot of our own speculation… and it’s been driving me nuts for years.
P: RAFO. Ugh, patience is hard.
Relationships & Romances
Adolin wrapped his arms around Shallan from behind. “It looks beautiful.”
“You look beautiful,” she replied.
“You are beautiful.”
“Only because you’re here. Without you, I fade.”
Brightness Teshav stood near them, and though the woman normally maintained a stoic professionalism, Shallan thought she caught a hint of an eye roll.
A: ::gigglesnort:: Yeah, I’m rolling my eyes too. (Not because I think it was badly written, mind you—just because it fits these two so well and if I were anywhere around them I’d be reacting just like Teshav.)
P: So much cheese, yes. But it is adorable because Adolin has the ability to find Shallan and that’s so important for her to have someone who can do that. She desperately needs Adolin.
She did as Dalinar commanded, amused by how the scribes and generals pointedly did not look at her and Adolin. Some whispered about Adolin’s Westerner heritage, which made him too public with his affection.
A: Yeah, that Evi. Teaching those boys to show their feelings, of all things!
P: ::judges in Alethi::
The door opened.
Revealing three young men in worn clothing. … Her brothers.
P: Just when you thought the crying was over! ::cue Paige crying… again::
A: You know, I’d halfway forgotten them; when they showed up here, it was quite a stunner! My only objection to this scene was that letters from Mraize always irritate me, and I was all psyched up for the wedding! But it was delightful to see them returned to her, and it’s really quite a wedding gift.
Bruised & Broken
She still needed to explain some things to Adolin. Most notably, the entire mess with the Ghostbloods. … Veil could explain—Adolin was growing accustomed to her, though he wouldn’t be intimate with her. He treated her like a drinking buddy, which was actually kind of working for both of them.
A: Ugh. Her involvement with the Ghostbloods is so disturbing, as is her secrecy about it with the few people who would be able to help her. As for her mental state… well, “broken” is kind of literal, in this case. It’s sort of cute that Adolin gets along with Veil like a drinking buddy, and I really love that he won’t be intimate with her. But it would have to be uncomfortable for him, wouldn’t it, having two sort-of-other people sharing his fiancée’s body? Shallan thinks it’s “kind of working for both of them”… but I have to wonder if Adolin would agree.
P: I personally think that Adolin will do whatever he needs to do in order to be with Shallan. If that means befriending her other personas until she heals some more and reintegrates them, then so be it. And yeah, she really, really needs to come clean to both Adolin and Jasnah about the Ghostbloods. I’m so not comfortable with her continued involvement in that society.
Inexplicably, the Assassin in White had joined them. He sat outside the room, guarding the door as Dalinar’s new bodyguard.
A: We’ve talked about this before—how odd it is that the man who tried twice to kill Dalinar is now his bodyguard, and apparently unquestioned. I got to thinking about that, and I think it’s because Taravangian told Dalinar about having “owned” Szeth and used him as an assassin. I don’t suppose most people actually understand the whole thing with Oathstones, but even so, the fact that Taravangian voluntarily took responsibility for all the killing has to have counted for a lot.
P: I mean, he is a badass fighter, so handy to have around. But I can’t imagine it would be easy to trust him. It would have been nice to have an onscreen chat between these two, to clear the air and let Dalinar know that Szeth swore his Third Ideal to Dalinar personally.
A: You know… that really would help. If we knew that Dalinar knew about that Ideal, it would be a lot easier to understand this quick acceptance.
He’d explained, frankly and without concern, that the majority of the Order of the Skybreakers had chosen to serve Odium.
A: Shallan thinks about how this demonstrates that you can’t entirely trust someone just because they’d spoken the Ideals, and she’s right. It seems like the sort of thing they all need to keep in mind… though how to do that without constantly being suspicious of each other is another question.
P: Yeah, this is kind of huge, and I wish more had been said about it onscreen. I mean, one more chapter would have fit, right? A little one?
“Gavinor can be named your heir, Adolin, but we must see you two married and the monarchy secured. For the good of Alethkar, but also the world.”
… You can be this man, if you want, she thought to him. But you don’t have to be what he makes of you. …
“I’m not going to be king, Father,” Adolin said.
P: For the first time, we see Adolin resist his father.
A: I’m a little ambivalent about Shallan’s thought, here. She’s acknowledging that Adolin could be king (and IMO, he’d make a good one despite his own reservations), and also that he doesn’t have to do it, nor should he necessarily want to. At the same time, she’s completely unable to apply this to herself; her reaction to nearly everything people expect of her is to create a new personality to fulfill the expectation. I’m half surprised that she didn’t create a Ward!Shallan persona to fit Jasnah’s expectations.
Shallan aside, though, it was a bit of a shock to see Adolin downright refuse his father’s assumption here!
P: We always see more clearly when dealing with someone else’s issues, and our vision clouds when looking at ourselves.
“Didn’t you listen to what I just said? I broke the Codes!”
“Everyone in this storming country breaks the Codes,” Dalinar said … “I broke the Codes hundreds of times. You don’t have to be perfect, you only have to do your duty.”
A: As a rationale for not accepting the kingship, “I broke the Codes” falls kind of flat—or it would for anyone but Adolin—because as Dalinar says, everyone breaks the Codes. Granted, killing Sadeas in a back corridor, even in a reasonably fair fight, may not have been an entirely lawful act, and covering it up for months was also not great. In many cultures, that killing would disqualify him, but this is Alethkar, where killing people to advance your interests—and especially, those of your family/princedom—is a way of life. The thing is, Adolin is far less bothered by the actual killing than he is by the fact that he broke the Codes to do it. (Honestly, in some ways he’d make a good Skybreaker. He expects perfection from himself all the time.) As much as he used to resent Dalinar’s insistence on the Codes, he eventually decided that they really were the best pattern for behavior in the current events. From that point on, he did his utmost to live by them in all situations—and he thinks this one failure disqualifies him. Oh, Adolin, if only you knew… Dalinar’s reaction is far more true than you can begin to imagine.
“Mmm…” Pattern said. “This is a good you, Shallan.”
A good me. She breathed out. Veil formed on one side of the room, … Radiant appeared near the table …
“It’s okay for me to enjoy this,” Shallan said, as if discovering something precious. “It’s all right to celebrate. Even if things are terrible in the world, it’s all right.” She smiled. “I… I deserve this.”
Veil and Radiant faded.
P: Fade forever. For. Ever. I’m so ready for Shallan to just be Shallan.
Balat still had the haunted look that had always shadowed him.
A: This always makes me wonder about Balat… There’s a WoB indicating that there were magical influences affecting his behavior; is that what the “haunted look” comes from? Is the influence over him enough that he’s actually a direct tool for Odium? Because if it is, having him close to Shallan doesn’t seem like a good thing.
P: I never considered that he might be a tool of Odium. That’s certainly an uncomfortable thought.
Adolin was not the man Dalinar had thought he was—but then, couldn’t he forgive someone for that?
A: I just find this so ironic. Dalinar is bummed that Adolin hasn’t lived up to his assumptions… and he’s sitting there preparing to tell the whole world—and his son—that he isn’t the man they thought he was. So… yeah, Dalinar, I think you need to forgive your son for not being perfect!
P: I don’t think he was going to put that in the book, but I hate that he even thought it. Kind of like Lirin thinking less of Kaladin for not becoming a surgeon. Let your son be who he is, Dalinar. Don’t trample on his individuality, because he’s a pretty amazing individual!
A: Oops. I wasn’t trying to imply that Dalinar thought about putting Adolin’s failure in the book. It’s just that the book is going to expose some of the many ways Dalinar has failed to be the man people think he is—and in particular, the man his sons think he is. In that context, how can he be so disappointed that Adolin isn’t perfection incarnate? I guess it’s like you said earlier—it’s much easier to see clearly when you’re looking at other people’s issues.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
He wasn’t certain Dalinar would ever trust him again, but giving him some truth had been a calculated risk. For now, Taravangian was still part of the coalition.
P: Much to my chagrin.
A: Yeah, no kidding. Ugh.
Storms take you, Nightwatcher, he thought. Odium’s victory will kill you too. Couldn’t you have just gifted me, and not cursed me?
He’d asked for the capacity to save his people. He’d begged for compassion and acumen—and he’d gotten them. Just never at the same time.
P: Be careful what you ask for, sport.
A: I don’t think this is the first time he’s hinted at this, but I think it’s the first clear statement of what he asked for, and how it was answered—or at least what he can see of how it was answered. We know now that Taravangian actually met Cultivation, so the question hanging out there now is, why the split? If it were Nightwatcher, as Taravangian apparently assumes, it seems like the sort of things she’d do. But Cultivation… as we saw with Dalinar, Cultivation sometimes plays a much longer game. If she were going to give him the capacity he asked for, and then split the requested compassion and acumen, why? We’ve speculated for a long time that the stupid, compassionate days might be equally, or even more critical to that “capacity” than his smart, emotionless days. But… golly, his stupid days can be stupid.
“Little man. Why did you write to us? Why did you have your Surgebinder unlock the Oathgate, and allow our armies to attack Urithiru?”
“I wish only to serve you, Great God”…
A: UGH!! IIRC, this POV is the first time (earlier in the conversation) we knew that Malata had deliberately, and by order of the Diagram, opened the Oathgate for the Fused/singer raid. Yeah, the one that killed Eth, and nearly killed Rock and Bisig, when they stole the Honorblade. I think my biggest source of anger at Taravangian is that the Diagram never seems to require him to risk his own people, or make any personal sacrifices. It’s always someone else—other nations’ leaders, other people’s loved ones, other Radiants or squires, even though they are part of the people he’s ostensibly trying to protect.
P: This is why I’ve never bought the whole “trying to save the world” thing. He very much has an “us vs. them” mentality when it comes to the other human nations of Roshar, and dammit, that’s not how it should be.
“This is remarkable. … You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm? Truly incredible. … Allow me to show you how far I see.”
Golden words exploded outward from the ones Taravangian had written in the Diagram. Millions upon millions of golden letters burned into the air, extending into infinity. Each took one small element that Taravangian had written, and expanded upon it in volumes and volumes’ worth of information.
A: Just a little Cosmology note here, as Odium refers to the Spiritual property of Fortune. It appears (though I could be wrong) that his showing off here is a matter of access to both Fortune itself, and to the Spiritual Realm, presumably due to being a Shard of Adonalsium. In any case, it’s quite a visual, and a rather snarky way of using an apparent complement as a complete put-down. “Oh, you pathetic little cremling, you did so well given your limitations. Let me show you how much greater I am, little bug.”
P: I don’t know who annoys me more… Taravangian or Odium.
A section of words that had faded from golden to black. What was that? As he drew near, Taravangian saw that the words were blacked out into eternity starting from this point on his wall. As if something had happened here. A ripple in what Odium could see …
At its root, a name. Renarin Kholin.
P: Yeesss! I love that not only has the Diagram proven to be untrustworthy, but there are some things they can’t see due to Renarin. This is excellent. Mess up their plans, Renarin!
A: Even more than the Diagram, there are things Odium can’t see because of Renarin. I find this particularly funny after Odium just got done putting the squish on Taravangian’s presumption of omniscience. Hah. Whose omniscience is lacking now, buddy?
They had planned to protect so much more. But … he saw now how little they knew. One city before the storms. One land protected, even if the rest had to be sacrificed.
P: I’ve seen a lot of defenses of Taravangian from the fandom, saying that what he did was forgivable because he was trying to save everyone. I still reject that Kool-Aid because I don’t feel the killing is justified regardless. What good is it to be saved if you’re no better than your enemy?
Spoiler alert: No good. It’s no good.
A: I can understand his defeatism here, after Odium just made him feel incredibly small, but I agree—that’s no defense. Making deals with the devil to save your own skin and your own city at the cost of the rest of the world, and keeping that bargain secret from everyone else so that you can adequately betray them? Nope. Not on.
“There’s a traitor among us,” Dalinar said softly. “Someone attacked Bridge Four specifically to get the Honorblade—because they needed it to unlock the Oathgates and let the enemy in.”
“That,” Shallan said softly, or it was unlocked by a Radiant who has changed sides.”…
“You think,” Adolin said, “Taravangian might have done it?”
“No,” Dalinar said. “Why would he work with the enemy? Everything he’s done so far has been to secure a safe Roshar—if through brutal means. Still, I have to wonder. I can’t afford to be too trusting.”
P: Gah, Dalinar. No. Bad highprince. Highking, Whatever you are… Bondsmith. Take Taravangian to the market and storming string him up for the murders of all of those monarchs. Go. Do it. Now.
A: Right? “Why would he work with the enemy” indeed! This is… bizarre.
“Your next mission is equally important. One of the Unmade seems willing to break from Odium. Our good and that of your Radiant friends align. You will find this Unmade, and you will persuade it to serve the Ghostbloods. Barring that, you will capture it and deliver it to us.”
A: This is from Mraize’s letter to Shallan, and the obvious question is, how does he know about Sja-anat and her possible interest in gaining independence? The next obvious question is, how does he think Shallan is going to find and capture an Unmade? Seems a bit much, though of course she did manage to drive one of them out of Urithiru. Well, I guess we’ll have to wait and see if we get the “forthcoming details” Mraize promised.
P: There’s a lot of plotting going on in this final chapter, but I also can’t help but wonder how Mraize expects Shallan to capture an Unmade. Will he provide a perfect gemstone for her to use? Plus, Sja-anat is a Braize of a lot smarter than Nergaoul, she won’t be easily captured. Not only that, but Shallan doesn’t really know, IIRC, HOW she drove Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother from the Tower… she just had a dance-off with illusions. She’s kind of flying by the seat of her havah here.
Squires & Sidekicks
Along a dried-out river, he found a little group of refugees huddled by a cavern in the stone. A very small fire laced the air with smoke, and lit ten people in brown cloaks. Nondescript, like many others he’d passed during his search. The only distinctive feature was a small symbol they’d painted on an old tarp pinned up between two poles at the front of the camp.
The symbol of Bridge Four.
P: There was a lot to cheer about in part 5. A lot. Szeth’s epic Radiant landing, Jasnah’s soulcasting, Adolin summoning Maya in seven heartbeats, Venli speaking the First Ideal, Lift standing beside Dalinar when he faced enemy armies alone, Teft’s Ideal, Rock and the Shardbow, and yes… freaking Unity. A lot to cheer about, indeed. Things calmed down and you thought the cheering was over, right? It’s all aftermath and epilogue after this. But no. Oh, no. Brandon gives us one more, cheer-worthy moment, and it was incredible. I kind of bawled while laughing, it was so awesome.
A: Indeed and it was. This was a crazy freaking gorgeous moment. We’d spent Part Four and Part Five accepting that the whole rest of the team was lost in Kholinar along with Elhokar, and… here they are. Safe and alive. Oh, the cheers that went up at this moment!! I’d also like to point out that they made a long trip, all on foot, to get to the coast where Kaladin found them.
Szeth was the only guard Dalinar had for the moment, as Rial and his other bodyguards were all in Bridge Thirteen—and that whole crew had gone up as squires to Teft.
P: You go with your bad self, Teft!
Places & Peoples
Dalinar walked through the illusion, holding his hand over Iri, Rira, and Babatharnam. “Change this part of the land to a burning gold.” … Azir and its protectorates she painted a pattern of blue and maroon, the symbol the Azish scribes had chosen for the coalition between their kingdoms. … Marat and those around it went gold, as did—unfortunately—Alethkar. Lands that hadn’t yet committed, like Shinovar and Tukar, she turned green.
A: What a visual. Can you just see that map, floating waist-high in the room? Depressing, but still—what a visual.
P: We need art, for sure.
A: This isn’t nearly as good as theirs, but it gives you an idea. Note that Aimia and the Frostlands are so scarcely populated that I didn’t color them. I’m not sure about the Reshi Isles, but they’re so isolated I’m betting no one has bothered with them yet.
We took Shardblades from the women, he thought, glancing at the one hung on the wall above his desk. And they seized literacy from us. Who got the better deal, I wonder?
A: I love this realization from Dalinar. It’s more or less worked for the Vorin kingdoms for the last 15 centuries or so, but what do you suppose they’d have been like had the people with the magic swords also had readier access to history and philosophy? Might they have turned out more like some of the other nations to the west?
P: Perhaps they’d be less barbaric, anyway.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
… “We need a ruler in Alethkar who won’t be pushed over, but who can also deal with diplomats in diplomatic ways.”
“Well, that’s not me,” Adolin repeated.
“Who, then?” Dalinar demanded.
Shallan cocked her head. “Hey. Have you boys ever considered…”
A: ::snicker::
P: Drumroll, please…
She wore a small but unmistakable crown on her head. The Kholin family, it seemed, had chosen their new monarch.
Turi grinned at the looks of worry on the faces of many of the others in the room. “Oh my,” he whispered to Palona. “Now this should be interesting.”
P: Jas, Queen! I loved this little tidbit. And it was great to have a Palona POV, too. She’s fantastic.
A: I love Palona and Turi. (Sebarial, in case anyone forgot who “Turi” was.) He’s such a faker most of the time, but they’re both very clever… and he loves to turn over a rock and watch the bugs scurry. (Okay, he loves watching someone else turn over the rock because it would be too much effort to do it himself, but whatever.) This was the perfect POV to get this revelation.
Weighty Words
Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with Stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so.
P: Does this mean he united the realms again?
A: That’s my understanding. He’s able to do it at will, I guess? With the limitation of it being a huge effort, of course.
A child? In rags. Yes, a frightened little boy, maybe three or four years old, lips chapped, eyes haunted. Elhokar’s son.
“We protect those,” Drehy said, “who cannot protect themselves.”
P: I was already crying about Skar and Drehy being alive and well, this made me cry and laugh even more.
A: This was glorious—the little guy survived! Poor child, though; his father was killed trying to protect him, after his mother allowed him to be tormented by Voidspren. Who knows what he went through before that, and what it took for Skar and Drehy to retrieve him from the palace and smuggle him all the way to the coast.
The reason I included this passage in this section, though, is that line from Drehy. That’s the second Ideal of the Windrunners. Is he just quoting what they know? Or are they no longer squires, but Windrunners themselves? Either way, rescuing Gavinor is absolutely a Windrunner behavior.
P: I heartily agree. ::sniffle::
Meaningful Motivations
“I killed Sadeas, Father,” Adolin whispered.
Dalinar froze.
“It was me,” Adolin continued. “I broke the Codes of War and killed him in the corridor. For speaking against our family. For betraying us time and time again. I stopped him because it needed to be done, and because I knew you would never be able to do it.”
P: I loved the way Adolin dropped this bomb. Right there during the meeting, so Dalinar couldn’t freak out about it. And it was awesome when he said, “I’m not sorry for what I did—and I’d do it again, right now.” ::cheering::
A: I can’t help thinking back to the end of Words of Radiance, and all that foulness that Sadeas was spewing at Adolin. The lies he was planning to spread about how the Battle of Narak was all a deal Dalinar worked out with the Parshendi, so he could take control of all Alethkar. The promise that he would keep opposing Dalinar one way or another, that he’d take Urithiru and all the new discoveries away. All that, on top of so many other taunts, on top of his deliberate set-up and betrayal at the Tower. First, is it any wonder Adolin had had enough? And second, was there any other way to stop Sadeas from destroying his family, and probably leaving all of humanity to face Odium’s forces without Radiants? (Remember, he didn’t know about Dalinar’s new Bondsmith status at the time.) Third, as I’ve argued before, the Alethi are all about “might makes right” in their power struggles.
As I said above, Adolin’s only issue with having done this is that it went against the Codes that he’s been trying to uphold. Aside from that, he has no regrets—and in context, I fully agree with him.
P: Oh, I absolutely agree. I cheered when he offed that snake. Good riddance, says me.
She held something before herself in two hands. … The Blade of Jezerezeh. Honorblade.
Moash reached for it, hesitant, and Leshwi hummed a warning rhythm. “If you take it, you die. Moash will be no more.”
“Moash’s world is no more,” he said, taking the Blade by the hilt. “He might as well join it in the tomb.”
“Vyre,” she said. “Join us in the sky. You have a work.” …
“I’ve been told it means He Who Quiets.”
P: Rage. I just have rage. Moash is a rabid dog and Kaladin desperately needs to put him down. ASAP.
A: Agreed. The only thing I can say for him, and it’s pretty sketchy, is that after all the things he’s done, I can sort of understand that numbness, and the desire to be someone else. I don’t think this is gonna do it for him, but hey, what has he got to lose at this point?
One other thing to note here… This Honorblade had been used for the past eight years or so to assassinate people, ranging from petty crime bosses to kings. For a few months, it was used in more honorable ways, such as allowing the Windrunner squires to train with their Surges even in the absence of their Knight. Now, it appears that it may be returning to assassination duty; “He Who Quiets” seems to indicate that he’ll be used to “quiet” opposition, and who better for the Fused to send in as an assassin than a human? (Okay, not against anyone who actually knew Moash, but that still allows most of the world.) Anyway, I suppose it will be… interesting to see what uses they have for him.
Quality Quotations
- Dalinar Kholin was a force like a storm. He simply blew you over, and assumed you’d always wanted to lie down in the first place.
- “Oh, Turi,” Palona said. “You can’t just ask people about gossip. This is why you’re hopeless.”“And here I thought I was hopeless because of my terrible taste in women.”
- Her sapphire gown was of an ancient style, with twin drooping sleeves that went far beyond her hands. Small rubies woven into the embroidery glowed with a complementary light. A golden vest draped over the shoulders, matched by the ornate headdress woven into her braids.
And that’s the end of Part Five. Finis.
Next week, we’ll address the Epilogue and the Ars Arcanum. We hope you’ll join us for that, and (obviously) in the comments below for this final chapter.
Beyond that, things are still a little tentative. We’ll take a few weeks off, and then we hope to come back with a series of varied articles about the Stormlight Archive, one way or another. Along with a general refresher for people who haven’t been rereading with us, we hope to do some deeper dives into topics of interest as we prepare for Rhythm of War. If you have subjects on your mind, where you’d like to see some discussion, please let us know in the comments, or message me through this website, or message me on facebook.
Speaking of Rhythm of War, the beta read is mostly finished, and Brandon is in the process of doing the next revision. And so, the hype begins! Personally, I’m most looking forward to the cover art reveal. Those are always so awesome!
Last but not least: We haven’t really asked about this, but how are you all doing in this time of viruses, lockdowns, layoffs, work-from-home, school-from-home, and all the other craziness? Are you okay? Staying healthy? Staying sane? We truly hope that this weekly reread has been a positive touchpoint in your lives; at least we can still “gather” online to talk about the things we love! Please do keep in touch, and let us know if we can encourage you in any way.
Alice is discovering that life under lockdown isn’t all that much different than it was before, except that her people are around all day and she doesn’t go to the store as often. Oh, and she sleeps later, because there’s no need to get dressed in time to get the girl-child to school. As a low-maintenance introvert, she’s apparently been training for this her whole life.
Paige resides in New Mexico, of course, and writes in an attempt to stay sane. No, really. Imagine if she didn’t write. Yeesh. She’s a champ at the in-person social distancing, but is bereft at the postponement of the MLB season. Links to her Patreon and her available works are provided in her profile.
Odium has killed multiple gods, including Honor. He has defeated actual Shardholders, and Team Radiant is composed of nothing more than squishy mortals with some powers.
Taravangian’s response to this is to engage in triage. Rather than trying to win everything, and risk losing everyone, he is going to try and save some people.
Dalinar’s response is to fight to save everyone, just as Honor did. But Honor is dead. If this wasn’t a book, there would be a very good chance that Dalinar’s approach ends with Odium escaping from Roshar, killing everyone, and going on to slaughter his way across the Cosmere. There would be also be a good chance that Taravangian’s approach would lead to one city being spared.
As for the idea of Dalinar Kholin placing Taravangian on trial: HA HA HA HA HA no.
The Alethi version of Genghis Khan does not get to hold trials. In fact, Dalinar has no moral authority to put anyone on trial, ever, since his own actions merit death many times over. He should start moving towards a rehabilitative justice system, since the idea of Dalinar Kholin punishing murderers is just too hilariously ironic for words.
It’s kind of cute how Adolin thinks murdering Sadeas is wrong, while the rest of Alethi society would probably applaud him for his swift and decisive action.
Just have to mention one little thing that bugged me in this chapter. After being handed the Honorblade, Moash—sorry, Vyre—immediately lashes himself into the sky to join the Fused. Excuse me, but Moash was never a squire and never practiced with the surges. And yet he falls into the sky like it’s old hat. I know it’s the end of the book and maybe Brandon was just trying to wrap things up, but it bugs me.
Both Azir and Yezier claim that Surgebinding could destroy the world. I wonder if that is Odium’s plan, to remove the checks.
I was kind of hoping you’d include how horny Shallan was in that one PoV of hers, I was dying of laughter when I read that.
I loved these rereads! I’ve been patiently waiting for every thursday since April 2019. I guess we’ve really come a long way! Also, do you plan on posting RoW chapters like you did with OB? If so, what can you tell us about it- maybe when it’ll start or how many chapters you’re going to be posting?
Also, stay safe and healthy everyone!
I love this chapter.
I have a personal foundness over hearing others calling Adolin’s westerner heritage out. I always took he was the one inheriting the most from his mother and I really hope this will come into play in future books. I hope Adolin’s path will lead him towards embracing his Riran heritage as much as his Alethi one. Perhaps more.
I agree Shallan is more readily able to accept others should be themselves than to apply it to herself. That was very realistic. I just wish she had told Adolin those things instead of thinking them because he may not be broken, but I do think Adolin needs to hear it is OK not to be who Dalinar wants him to be. I am sad no one thinks he needs to hear it, to believe it.
I loved Adolin saying no to Dalinar for the first time in his life though his no came up for the wrong reasons. I would have wished Adolin said no to being the son Dalinar wants him to be, no towards being judged negatively for being different, instead he said no to the crown out of believing he has failed his father’s ideals. I didn’t think he made much progress here, I would argue he regressed since he is resolute to consider himself unworthy of his father.
I don’t think Adolin planned to tell Dalinar in a public meeting to avoid a reaction, I think it just slipped out because he couldn’t accept becoming King. I think Dalinar asked him for far too much then he was able to agree too, even without Sadeas. Sadeas was just the excuse Adolin used. Still, while this is a consequences, I wished there had been more… with more impact. This seems quite mild given the built-up the murder had in WoR.
I hate Dalinar here for *still* thinking Adolin is *not* enough for him since he failed at being pristine perfect. I hate him for thinking he should forgive Adolin, not for killing Sadeas, but for not being the son he wanted. Ouach. That hurts. I can’t see it going well in the future, but we’ll see. They will have a year to work it up. Still, those two need to talk one to another and to drop the rose-teinted googles they have of each other.
I hated reading Adolin was a “drinking buddy” with Veil and Shallan thinking this is a great compromise. Poor guy! And I am angry at Shallan for thinking Veil should hang with Adolin or Veil should exist at all after finding out how much of a lie and a problem she is. I am angry at Shallan for putting poor Adolin up to this farce. I can’t see it going well in the future. Adolin may be the perfect poster boy for accepting everything but everyone has limits. I find the Shallan and Dalinar are asking A LOT out of him without caring what it does to him. Or whether ot not it may edn up being too much.
Dalinar welcoming Szeth with open arms was… odd… I can’t see everyone agreeing to it just because “Szeth is a Radiant”. I also worry over how other people will start to view the Radiants if they start seeing their prominent members as former criminals.
Gavinor being saved made my heart warm but I wish we had seen his reunion with Navani.
Shallan’s brothers coming back also made my heart warm. I wish we had read more of the wedding.
@1: I think Dalinar not being in a position to put anyone to justice might eventually come into play. While I understand why he would want to be done with his past and to expose it, I question whether it is wise to do so. After all, the world is better off not knowing what Dalinar Kholin once did, for its own shake. Even his sons are better off… not knowing.
@1 Taravangian, I agree. In a non-narrative world his plan makes the most sense with the knowledge the characters had. Also as a sovereign leader no one has the authority to put him on trial.
Hehe, Shallan’s dance off. I can see it now glowing illusions on one side and shadowy silhouettes on the other. And for some reason set to “Beat It” in my brain.
Man, I can’t believe this is almost over :(
I really, really love the little tidbit that Adolin won’t be intimate with Veil (which now begs the question what Brandon meant by that – they haven’t married yet, right? Or did this happen off screen? I don’t have the book so I can’t check. Did they find a way around Pattern’s NO MATING? Or does he just mean he won’t kiss her, etc). He’s just such a quality person.
I love both Renarin and Jasnah so I love seeing Renarin as the hitch in the Diagram and while it might not be perfect, I did squee when Jasnah was Queened.
““It’s okay for me to enjoy this,” Shallan said, as if discovering something precious. “It’s all right to celebrate. Even if things are terrible in the world, it’s all right.” She smiled. “I… I deserve this.”” – this is such a great line. And honestly very fitting for today.
The light Dalinar sees is probably related to his partial ascension. He now has a connection to other realms and can draw Stormlight from them. Like Odium he at least sometimes can see more than the normal world.
Szeth is the one who could become the judge holding trials for kings. He already was an executioner of kings.
There were many great moments in this chapter, and the one when we found out that Skar, Drehy, and the others were alive and had also saved little Gavinor was amazing. However, one of my very favourite moments (which I thought would be featured in the coconuts section) was this: “Noura delivered a box of incense from the Azish emperor, along with a dried fish from Lift. /—/ A pair of boots. Ka seemed embarrassed as she opened the box and revealed them as a gift from Kaladin and Bridge Four, but Shallan just laughed.”
Now these are the presents that really mean something …
Also, yes, it will feel weird when there will be no new chapter to tackle, but yay for the promised articles! Alice, Lyndsey, Paige, you have done a wonderful job, thank you for it!
(Edited to remove a typo noticed a second too late)
I wish we’d seen Shallan and Adolin’s wedding on-page, just because seeing Pattern intoning “YOU ARE ALLOWED TO MATE NOW” in front of dozens of Alethi dignitaries would have been hilarious.
Regarding Moash, my suspicion is that he’s going to end up as Odium’s Champion. Given Brandon’s love of mirroring scenes, I expect we’ll see something similar to the scene where Odium offers to take Dalinar’s pain–except that this time, the would-be champion will accept the offer. So, #noredemption, and he’ll probably die in the Sanderlanche of Book 5, but he’ll get a lot more powerful and do a lot more damage before then.
Like everyone else, I loved the scene with Skar and Drehy! I think they may be full Windrunners now.
Alice and Paige. I am glad both of you and your families are safe and healthy.
To paraphrase a question asked during Passover Seder: Why is Chapter 122 different than all other chapters in Oathbringer?
The answer. One of the few issues in the novel that Gepeto and I agree upon. Neither one of us likes the resolution of Adolin murdered Sadeas arc.
My dislike of this arc is from a literary perspective. From a literary perspective, Adolin killing Sadeas was a waste. It had no effect on the plot. It had no effect on the plot. I do not buy that the only way Shallan would have investigated the deaths (and thus uncovering the Night Mother and freeing Urithiru from her effects) was because Sadeas was killed. Her character is such that once she learned of killings, she would have investigated. In the first two books, there were a lot of buildup between the conflict between Dalinar/Adolin and Sadeas. At the very end of a novel, Adolin and Sadeas have school-yard fist fight that ends in Sadeas’ death. For Adolin not to face any consequences, is, IMO, a major literary disappointment.
I am disappointed that Nale and most of the Skybreakers choose to fight for the signers. What about the Oaths Nale swore? I do not understand how the Skybreakers cannot see that Odium’s forces among the Voidbringers want to exterminate humans. That will include the Skybreakers themselves.
Will Ialai go back to the Shattered Plains after leaving Urithiru? She cannot go to Sadeas lands. Alethkar is in singer control. I do not understand why she left in disgrace. She could claim that it was Amaram who caused Sadeas troops to defect. Will the Sadeas troops who were possessed by the Thrill but do not have redeyes be accepted back to Urithiru?
In RoW, I hope Brandon gives us a scene where Shallan or Adolin (or anybody else) describes Shallan and Adolin’s wedding ceremony and celebration. Maybe from the perspective of Pattern or Syl. Better yet, a short conversation between the two spren. That would make a humorous interlude.
One of Adolin’s greatest flaw is he is not as good as person as he thinks Dalinar is. But Dalinar comes to accept that Adolin is still a good person even if not the ideal Dalinar believed Adolin to be. I wonder if Adolin will be less harsh on himself when he reads the in-world OB and learns that Dalinar is not the saint that Adolin held Dalinar up to be. I think Adolin will benefit mentally if he no longer feels he must be this perfect person.
A question for Beta readers. When you get the draft of Sanderson’s book to read, has Brandon written a title for each chapter? Paige said she named Chapter 122. I could not tell if her comment meant the version she received had no chapter title and she suggested the current title, or it had a different title, Paige recommended a different title and Brandon then switched the title.
Alice. Another reason why Battar is appropriate is that the chapter contains a counsel where they are looking over the map of the world Shallan created (with an assist from Dalinar). As for Vedel, the chapter contains a healing. Before the wedding, we see that Shallan has come to an acceptance regarding the control her other personas (Veil and Radiant) have over her. I see this as a form of self-healing. It shows some level of acceptance. Without acceptance, Shallan cannot fully heal (or at least reach a level where she can basically function as a normal human – albeit on with magical powers).
Ok, fine. A small form of self-healing. But as Dalinar said, the most important step someone can take is the next step. Shallan may not be taking giant steps, but this is just a more step (even if it is a tiny step) in the direction she needs to move.
I am glad that Eylita survived as well. Had she not, then I think Balat would have gone back to the same despair he suffered before he met her and never recovered. Hopefully, Wikim and Jushu will be ok as well. If I had to guess, however, I think Jushu will get entangled in the criminal underworld that transferred from the Plains to Urithiru.
Page and Alice. If any of Shallan’s brothers is or will become a tool for Odium, it will be Balat. I believe that the haunting look that Balat has is someone who realizes all the tough circumstances that has occurred with his family (since the death of his mother). Wikim and Jushu, as well as Shallan, all reacted differently. I think that Balat’s age during this whole mess contributed more to him having the look than anything else. Since her father disowned his oldest son, Balat has known that he has more expectations on him. He does not believe he can handle them. And likely everything that happened to him, Eylita, Wikim and Jushu since Shallan left have not helped Balat’s psyche.
Alice. As you inferred in your comments, perhaps there were more than 10 sentient beings that Kaladin found (I interpreted Gavinor as among the 10). Maybe there is one or two Honorspren with the the 10 refugees.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Up to her ears in face masks? You did that on purpose!
It isn’t that he’s disappointed. I read that scene as saying that he realized being disappointed was stupid and hypocritical, and (this is the important part) actually was able to let go of the feeling.
As for the Taravangian/Odium conversation: I still say Taravangian is using Fortune. He isn’t aware of it, because Cultivation is really, really subtle. Note that T also could not predict Renarin’s effects. Also, the implication here (confirmed by WoB) is that one future-seer can interfere with another’s futuresight. So … who was interfering with Renarin’s futuresight to make him mispredict Jasnah? The only other confirmed seer (I’m going to use that word until Brandon gives us a better one) on Roshar, that I know of, is Hoid with his limited “know where to be” power.
Please don’t leave out the other squire present, Vathah. It’s completely in character for Kaladin to discount him–he’s personally close to Skar and Drehy (both of whom are modeled on actual friends of Brandon), where he has no particular relationship with Vathah (and probably doesn’t know he’s a squire). We see that Shallan’s other followers also survived, as well.
Hey, I like supporting casts. Glad to see they’re still around.
@Gepeto:
You’re thinking in terms of strategy and politics, and you’re not wrong. Dalinar, I believe, is (as is proper for a Bondsmith) thinking spiritually and socially.
Forgot things.
Moash has the Honorblade. He’s dead.
Why, you might ask?
Because the Stone Shamans were confident of their ability to recover it when Szeth died. I’m sure the Shin will be coming for it now, with other Honorblades and whatever the heck else they have.
At the beginning of Oathbringer, Kaladin flies to Hearthstone on a rescue mission and arrives too late. At the end, Kaladin flies off to wherever Skar and Drehy and the rest were, on a rescue mission that succeeds. He flies most of the way and walks the rest in both cases. In both cases he starts out with Stormlight explicitly provided by Dalinar.
I was so wrong about Adolin suffering consequences for murdering Sadeas. He had no consequences. He did not suffer any mental anguish for his actions. Maybe from an in-plot perspective, the resolution made sense:
Adolin: I killed Sadeas
Dalinar: How could you
Adolin: Because he betrayed us before and said he would do so again.
Dalinar: Ok. Let’s get ready for your wedding. BTW, here is some fatherly advice. Make sure you are marrying for love and not because your cousin and aunt/step-mother created a casual between you and your bride-to-be.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@11: We can’t disagree on everything ;-) I agree with everything you have listed in your post.
I too felt it was a wasted moment and it definitely was not up to par with the expectations I had built-up from Brandon’s work. One of the reasons I started really liking him as an author was the fact he never disappointed and he knew how to handled climaxes in a satisfying manner. In other words, each time I felt, in any of this book, a gun was about to get fired, it did fire in the most gut-wrenching way except this one time.
I agree, on a literacy point-of-view, it wasn’t a good outcome. Adolin murdering Sadeas ended up in a cliffhanger in WoR. Great lengths were taken, in the book, to state how terrifying the consequences would be, how they couldn’t deal with Sadeas in such a brutal manner because the consequences would surpass the benefit and yet, after Adolin snaps, all of this built-up vanishes. Had the scene in WoR been written in a less climatic manner, had the book not highlighted what the consequences should be, had the WoR narrative took care of the aftermath and said it was “non-issue”, had the story not ended in a manner which led to readers expect so much more, then yes, the outcome in Oathbringer would have worked out. However, because none of the conditions above were met, the aftermath come across as bad plotting all together.
Why have Adolin murder Sadeas if the intend was not to capitalize on the action? Anyone could have murdered Sadeas and the Oathbringer narrative wouldn’t have changed much. I agree Shallan absolutely did not need this kick-starter to start hunting the Unmades. I would also argue Shallan hunting the Unmades did not have to come at the cost of Adolin facing consequences. The two narratives did not have to be mutually exclusive.
I would state this chapter, right here, could have salvaged, in parts, the narrative had consequences finally manifested themselves. Had Dalinar not said they would bury the affair, had his reaction been more than mere disappointment in his son, had the betrayal of Sadeas’s troops been in part blamed on Adolin’s lies, had the inkling of consequences been known, then yes, it might have worked. I like this chapter but it had it been more, then the issues with the aftermath of Sadeas’s death might have been mitigated.
I thus did not find the “nothing happens” with a very dim hope there will be more in RoW sufficient pay-off for the built-up the scene has caused in the first place. I find the problem is either one of two things: it is either the built-up was too much for the intent or the pay-off was too little for the built-up.
Adolin’s greatest flaw: I think his greatest flaw is impulsivity driven by a constant need to prove himself combined with a refusal to ask for help. He thinks he can power through anything, on his own, without burdening anyone and he is hotheaded enough to apply this motto to life/death situations. I do not think him not being “as good” as Dalinar is a flaw, I think the fact he thinks this is a bad thing is part of the problem.
@12: I was indeed thinking about politics and strategy. Dalinar needs to be viewed as the rightful, strong, capable leader of Team Human if they stand a chance to win. I can’t see this happening if he starts to reassess his own past at a time when most people are more than willing to ignore it. I also question the need for his sons to know this truth.
The move might be good on a spiritual point-of-view, but spiritual will not help them win. Now is probably not the right time to start washing his dirty clothes in public especially since no one is asking about Rathalas nor cares anymore.
@14: There were no consequences and I do think it was a narrative misstep. In fact, I used to think it was such a huge one, I couldn’t understand why it was made in the first place.
I think the intention was for Adolin’s consequences to be this doubt he has which makes him give up the crown. The problem with the consequence is Adolin never wanted to be King in the first place (so he isn’t giving up something he cares about) and the second candidate appears like a much better one (so Alethkar loses nothing with him bailing out).
Adolin doesn’t walk out of the event changed, compromised nor having lost anything valuable. He doesn’t have a downward spiral following it, he is unhappy about what breaking his father’s codes say about him, but none of this questioning drives him towards… anything in particular.
So it is kind of a moot point. I do think it could have been explored better inside the planned narrative.
Does anyone know the timeframe between the Battle of Thaylen City and the wedding?
I doubt Skar and Drehy have spren, because couldn’t they have flown their charges to safety without having to call for Kaladin to get them?
In the end scene, Dalinar calls Rock a Windrunner. I am not sure if he just means generic Windrunner Squire Guy or actual Windrunner. The last we saw Rock he was down on the ground, not up on the roofs with the rest of Bridge Four. I wondered if he might end up in a different Order. Well, I guess it is only 6 months til RoW!
While I found Moash’s quest for revenge to be both understandable and tragically destructive to himself and his friends, what he has become is something terrible. Now just put a sword in his hands and he will kill what he is pointed at… because. Is he as reprehensible as Szeth, who killed because the world existed only as a punishment for himself, therefore murdering people was a legit thing to do (*eyeroll*). Maybe.
*snort*
Oh man. Many of us need to hear this sometimes, but especially Shallan with her exceptional ability to try to become other “yous.” Really, being made a Knight Radiant isn’t always good for your mental health. And not always good for the world at large either. Giving Lightweaver powers to an artist (as is typical) with conditioned experience at hiding herself from herself and deep uncertainty regarding who she wants to be, should be, and really is…that’s a recipe for epic achievement but also an irresistible temptation leading to trouble. See: Kholinar.
That’s what Ashertmarn said. :-p But seriously, it’s another thing that I, and probably many of us, have long needed to hear from ourselves and/or others.
How am I doing, in this time of isolation and fear? My depression has become a lot worse, As usual, it helps to see Kaladin persist despite his, while his world quite literally falls apart, though I don’t have his physical powers and healing ability (or live in a world purported to have less disease than Earth). And as usual, I cling to Lift’s words: “We gotta remember. Storm might be coming, but people still need to eat. The world ends tomorrow, but the day after that, people are going to ask what’s for breakfast. That’s your job.’ Not that I have much ability to feed people or otherwise help them survive, but I still need to eat, and I want to keep thinking there’s a day after the end of the world. In that vein, Oathbringer continues to help. In the earlier books, I related strongly to the written warning: “Now the sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The true desolation. The night of sorrows.” I didn’t see how the series could continue much longer. But the Everstorm has come, and gone, and returned, and the world is devastated, but people are still living and loving and fighting for their lives and their people. Mind you, Roshar now has leaders who (aside from Taravangian) are willing and able to be forces for the good of humanity, and that’s not relatable.
@14 AndrewHB
Your summary was pretty accurate, but I’m very much looking forward of the consequences hitting them in the face big-time when Ialai learns. It’ll be a bloodbath.
@15 Gepeto:
In hindsight I feel that the final chapter(s) are giving closure. Adolin stabbing Sadeas is giving closure in two regards, one: Sadeas finally gets what he had coming, and two: Adolin finally stands up and does something his father would never approve of. If the scene was never intended to foreshadow big conflict (which in hindsight is a valid way of reading that), then the outcome is perfectly okay.
I think that the decision to “bury this” is additional build-up. I can’t see this bit of intelligence not eventually ending up with Ialai, and I absolutely can’t see her just rolling over and accepting that. She’s going to use that to paint Dalinar, the great statesman who tries so hard to raise above his bloody path and do the right thing, as a holiert-than-thou hypocrite who will gleefully drop his standards as soon as it’s convenient. She will use that to make Adolin, the honorable duelist, role model and disney prince, look like he had been a backstabbing creep all along. If she’s good, she will have people indicating that Adolin acted on his father’s orders. It will be absolutely devastating, and the fallout will be nuclear. (And I think that that may turn out as Shallan’s opportunity to give back to Adolin by being who he needs.)
Forget Dalinar’s past – this is what will cost him. I can’t see it playing out otherwise, unless Ialai drops dead or gets herself discredited beyond repair. It might even drive her over to Team Odium.
I think that it’s a foil, actually. Adolin already never wanted to be king before he broke the codes, so I don’t think that this had any impact on the decision. But saying “no dad, I don’t want that” comes off as super selfish, and saying “no dad, I don’t qualify, I’m not honourable enough anymore” is a valid reason. The Freudian uber-Dalinar whom Adolin probably still sees half of the time would have reacted with “oh son, I am disappointed in you for failing so hard, but I’m also super proud because you admitted it before further wrong ensued. Go to your room without supper.”, or something alike.
On the topic of Tarvangian, how come nobody mentioned that he hid Renarin from Odium? That seems pretty important and worth mentioning
edit: side note on secrecy: things may need to be kept secret for a time, but the nature of truth is that it always gets out. Better to release it on your own terms then have it come out on someone elses
second edit: you want some in story examples of when hiding the truth made problems. Remember the whole covering up Dalinar’s visions fiasco, and how that almost blew up in their faces
@16: I have two weeks in mind.
@18:
I do not disagree with this statement. In fact, I agree with this statement. If the scene was never intended to foreshadow big conflict, then the outcome indeed is perfectly okay. My issues with it are I feel the way it was written and the emphasis WoR put on upcoming consequences (execution or exile) did foreshadow a bigger conflict. Hence, my lack of satisfaction with it.
I do not disagree with this statement, but on a pure literacy perspective, I would criticize why, if a bigger conflict is still to arrive, none of this was actually foreshadowed in Oathbringer. In other words, if the anticipated outcome to this narrative was to be delayed in time, then I strongly believe Oathbringer should have laid down the ground basis. There should have been concrete indications the aftermath has yet to pass. Instead, the narrative concluded with the affair being indeed buried down, no known in-world characters seemed to care, and Ialai left in disgrace without a princedom nor an army.
I will not dispute it is not possible Brandon had merely intended for a later denouement. If this is the case, then he sure didn’t leave many indications for it. My point remains thus valid: the aftermath was somewhat lack-luster and if this is a by-product of an outcome yet to come, then the narrative did a poor job of foreshadowing it.
The knowledge the aftermath has yet to happen, consequences have yet to manifest themselves would have done wonders to salvage, at least for me, the arc.
You don’t need to sell this to me! I am on-board! My issues are I do not trust the narrative will go there because I do not find there were clear indications Ialai will remain relevant in the next book. I would argue clues point to the opposite due to the complete vanishing of the strong opposition Dalinar had inside Alethkar.
This is what I expected going into Oathbringer. It didn’t happen. I can wait. I can be patient, but the lack of clear indications the narrative will even tackle it made me lose faith in the arc altogether.
To summarize, I think my issues with the arc is I feel the denouement was not proper pay-off for the cliffhanger it initially presented. I am willing to accept denouement could be delayed in time, but if this is the case, then I believe the Oathringer narrative should have left clues behind in order for the readers to understand: this has not been forgotten, it just isn’t the time yet.
Interesting take. I never thought of it under this light. I always took it those were the consequences and it always felt lackluster because it didn’t feel like… consequences. If it rock balls into something more tangible, then great. I will very much enjoy this, but again, there are no clear indications more will come.
That’s my main beef: being left with an outcome I ultimately find unsatisfying without having the promises it is planned to plan out into a more satisfying narrative at a later time.
@nightheron:
I read that as Drehy taking the Second Oath right there, at that moment. Of course, his taking the Oath won’t automatically make him a Knight Radiant unless an Honorspren decides to bond with him.
@myself:
My brain requires me to add what I just realized: … and in both cases, Kaladin finds a secret child when he arrives. First and last things he does in this book, and they are the same events but with totally different meanings. Brandon keeps talking about how he finds writing keteks difficult, but this whole book is one huge ketek and it’s brilliant.
nightheron @16 – “Does anyone know the timeframe between the Battle of Thaylen City and the wedding?”
So, 14 days after the battle, or one day less than 3 weeks.
;)
I think the book of Oathbringer being read by everyone will cause the great upheaval on “our side” of the war. However, do you really think, after what he did in the battle of TC, that anyone will feel up to arguing against Dalinar? He is the very definition of who they need to win this war. Plus, he will be neither high prince nor king, just a war leader, which is his strong point.
I hope in the next book that Queen Jasnah does away with the covered hand and since Dalinar can read and write and she can wield a shardblade; isn’t the whole Alethi man/woman “who gets to do what” deal broken?
@23 – It doesn’t seem realistic that an entire culture would throw away a whole set of centuries-old customs just because an already somewhat scandalous man, even a leader, decides to break one custom. Not in such a short time-span, anyway. It seems more reasonable to me that we’d see that sort of thing in the back five, after they’ve had a decade or so to get used to new things.
Sorry I’m so late getting back to this – I noted several direct questions I wanted to answer, but life had other ideas. Still, here I am, better late than never?
Andrew @11 – “A question for Beta readers. When you get the draft of Sanderson’s book to read, has Brandon written a title for each chapter? Paige said she named Chapter 122. I could not tell if her comment meant the version she received had no chapter title and she suggested the current title, or it had a different title, Paige recommended a different title and Brandon then switched the title.”
You may have noticed that throughout the SA books, the chapters are titled with a quote from the chapter – or in a few cases, a particularly relevant quote from a different chapter. Beginning with the Oathbringer beta read, we were given the opportunity to suggest chapter titles as we went through. We tried to give a number of good suggestions, upvoting the ones we especially liked, etc. (I think there was one chapter where the title was SO OBVIOUS that no one added to the list once that was entered. It was Chapter 109: Neshua Kadal, and everyone just upvoted that one suggestion.) Anyway, it’s not exactly a competition, but of course we had to go through after we got the gamma version and see whose suggestions were used… IIRC, Paige and I were tied at around 25 each, so we were pretty full of ourselves for a while. :D Personally, there are a couple that I really, really love and am delighted and proud to have made the suggestion… and sometimes I’m also astonished, as I read a chapter and think how perfect the title is, and discover it was my own suggestion. (I have a short memory these days.) I strongly suspect that for Rhythm of War, Drew will have the most suggestions used – he was reading a lot faster than Paige and I were, and about half the titles I had marked as suggestions, he’d already entered. So much for my smug mode. LOL
Carl @12 – “Up to her ears in face masks? You did that on purpose!”
I confess, I did. I typed it, deleted it as being too utterly cheesy, and retyped it because well, why not? We can all use a laugh these days, even if it’s corny.
(Also, from the previous week… I had no intention of slighting any of the extremely essential workers who are still out there doing their jobs to make life as easy as possible for the rest of us who are in hermit mode. I called out the truck drivers and rail workers, because those are my family—brothers, cousins, and nephews out doing those jobs every day. There are so many more of you whose efforts are deeply appreciated—or at least, they are once we stop and think about it. So… thank you. Because you’re out there, my husband can work from home and my daughter can do her schoolwork and meet with her classes, without the power going out or the wi-fi dropping. The farmers who keep producing food, the factory workers that keep producing the toilet paper and packaging and … the list could go on for pages and pages.
But you know who else I’m appreciating these days? The “non-essential workers.” I have to admit that my hair stylist isn’t “essential” for my survival, and I agree that (at least where I live) it made sense to close down hair salons and many other businesses, at least until we had a better idea what we’re facing. The sudden loss of all those little luxuries, though, has really made me realize how grateful I should be, to live in a place and a time when we as a culture can afford so very many non-essentials as a way of life. My parents grew up during the Great Depression, with the “use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without” kind of lifestyle, and my kids have no idea what it’s like to live that way. And I’m grateful.)
I had a lot of other responses to a number of the (very insightful) comments, but I can’t actually talk about any of that now… We’ll have to wait until November!
I struggle with the loss of people. I struggle with no longer having people around me besides my close family and there are just so many times I can repeat the same statement before they tell me so. I miss the coffee machine-talk, talking to people even if it was only to state meaningless things. I miss just seeing people around me without needing to avoid them at all costs. I miss the noise at the cafeteria and seeing, talking to people, in the flesh. I miss the grocery store, the shopping center, anywhere where there are people.
I feel as if all energy has been sucked right out of me and left me dry: like a plant in need of water and sun, but there are no water and sun to be had because this life will last for an unforeseeable amount of time. I feel like a caged whitespine. I don’t do well in captivity without projects, plans or anything to hope nor anticipate. I feel like the energy rabbit… with dead batteries.
They say people are more anxious because of the uncertainties, because they fear the disease, because they lost their incomes… I am selfishly depressed because… I miss people and without people, I feel hollow.
The thread asked how we were doing. This is how I am doing: terrible. It was fine, at first, but after a few weeks, my energy reserves dropped down to zero. I want so badly to feel the thrill of anticipation again, the excitement, the energizing feeling of having an exchange with someone, anyone and it will not happen for… a very long time.
I want to feel alive, again, but all news I hear is how loooooooooong it is going to take before this day happens. And since nothing bad happened in my personal life, all my complaints are void, as they always were. I just lost the sun and I have been desperately trying to get it to come back, to no avails as everything I do turn out against me.
So how do you explain having lost your energy source? I don’t think words can explain it. It is just as it is.
@21 Calr:
Gotcha. Drehy said the Oath, and meant it (lived it, really). Skar and Drehy don’t have spren yet, but they are ready to have spren
@22 WetlanderNW:
Thanks for the timeframe. It seemed to quickly follow but then Shallan started talking about months and i got confused.
Honestly, while the people I feel worst for are those struggling with illness or losing loved ones to it, close behind them is the extroverts. About a week into this, I saw a meme going around facebook: “Introverts, put down your book and check on your extrovert friends. We are not okay!” And it’s true. As much as I’m personally pretty content with having a good excuse not to go anywhere, and am extremely blessed that my husband can work from home so we have no major disruption to our family income, it’s not easy for a lot of other people.
Someone on my community facebook page was really upset the other day because a handful of kids, obviously not all from one family, had hopped the fence and were using the (supposedly off-limits) skate park. How dare they! They’re not practicing any kind of distancing! And I couldn’t help thinking… lady, you obviously don’t have high-energy pre-teens cooped up in your house for weeks on end. All their normal energy outlets have been shut down: no school, no sports, no public swimming pools, they can’t even go over to a friend’s house. Whether they snuck out and went to the park, or whether their parents broke down and said “okay, go, but avoid getting too close, and you & your equipment are getting hosed down with sanitizer when you get home!” – I don’t know, and neither does the complainer, but I feel awful for those kids! (Okay, I feel just as awful for their parents….)
This is just not an easy time for most people. :( It will come to an end, and hopefully soon!
My almost 8 year old grandson decided it would be a good time to kiss the neighbor girl through the fence. =O The 6 year old ratted him out. My son and daughter in law are going a little nuts. They are used to me being available to babysit for their mental health breaks. But I’m a nurse. Although I work in a low risk area, I do have contact with the public, so I won’t put them at risk. I’m an introvert, so I’m ok with my alone time. I do make a point to check on family members.
I haven’t seen this meme on my Facebook, but I can say it generally is a rather depressing place. Each time there are talks of finally ending this… nightmarish containment, it gets flooded with people screaming their heads on how we can’t go back to what we were… Or those talks of how “the world has changed and will never be the same”.
Those are the worst. Or the posts filled with people proud of having made bread for the first time. Or those posts filled with messages such as: “Re-invent yourself, discover yourself a new hobby, have you time”… I can’t pick which ones make me the most depressed, but I can say I nearly made a Jasnah of myself when the radio started playing this awfully depressing song sounding like a cat agonizing in a dark alley… Yesterday, I even curled up in the bed in the middle of the afternoon despite needing to work just… because… my energy was gone and sleeping endlessly until it all ends suddenly seemed like a very good idea.
Before despite no longer having friends, if I felt “lonely”, I could always go to the mall or I had my work colleagues to chat with. Now, this is gone and according to my stupid Facebook, that’s a good thing.
I have plenty to read, I obviously love to read, but I also need… fresh air and people. My Kindle is filled with great books to read, going from jungle thriller through fantasy romance passing by grimdark with a touch of very shameful childish read to fuel my new obsession over Greek mythology (which is fascinating) (thanks Circe), BUT… even that is not enough to lift my spirit.
Those are depressing times… I want to feel excited over stuff once again, any stuff, and really, the weather is really not helping. Even the trees look depressed.
My kids are doing fine though. They facetime with their friends, they have each other and they are being very… creative. It is me who feels miserable, everyone else just looks SO happy to be contained. I want some cheerfulness back into life.
The more I read about Taravangian, the more I am convinced that he’s right where cultivation wants him to be. The secret agent who doesn’t remember his true mission or path. We know from Mistborn that two opponents who can both see the future cancel each other out. But over these time scales, each opponent has to keep from committing and giving actual information to their opponent. They must delay turning an action from potential into actual to keep their opponent guessing and from countering.
That is why Taravangian can’t remember what he actually knows. How he has the capacity to save Roshar and interact with Cultivation. We know that Cultivation can be harsh and is willing to prune lives to save them. I think Taravangian’s job is to do not what needs to be done, but to do what needs to be done to cause what needs to be done. To Cultivate our heros along their path. To show that both compassion (an emotion that could be from Odium) and intelligence are necessary. Not to succeed, but to carry our heros on until Taravangian’s crowning moment of awesome where he remembers the diagram and betrays Odium at Cultivation time, just like Dalinar. Maybe even to prepare a vessel, someone who has been cultivated to master the emotions and void of Odium, and chosen to hold onto Honor. To merge the wrath of God with God’s Integrity and eliminate Odium’s consuming threat and Honor’s (now Nale) emotionless system of compromised rules by combining the two Shards.
It would certainly make for a lot of discussion around what Cultivation is willing to do, what lengths she and her puppet Taravangian are willing to go to to forge Dalinar and our heroes into what we need them to be.
Uh, I’m very sorry for those who are not okay being contained and stuff.
I’m a software engineer, the complete list of changes for me is
– washing hands takes slightly longer
– I save 40 minutes commuting time every day.
Otherwise, what quarantine? I’m golden. Nothing has changed for me. And my parents have stopped telling me that I should go out and socialise more, so that’s a big plus as well.
@Gepeto: I’m sorry you’re having to endure this.
I fixed on one thing you wrote, that you miss going outdoors. You don’t have to. Outdoor exercise is recommended, it’s definitely good for us. You just have to do it without being very physically close to others. I took a long walk yesterday. I took the precautions (wore a face cover, stayed at least a few steps away from everyone else who was out) but it felt really good. One doctor mentioned in a Q&A on COVID-19 that he does more outdoor exercise now than when he was going into the office. Instead of his commute time, he gets up at his regular time, then goes out in the early morning for an hour-long walk.
@32: I save an hour of commuting every day, but… I miss getting in my car and driving to work… I miss my car! It looks so lonely, hiding in the garage, unused and I love that car!
I don’t even wash my hands, why would I bother, I no longer go out… It is paranoia outside.
@33: Well, yes, we are still allowed to go have “a walk” outside, but I don’t know how things are in your corner of the world, but over here joggers are eyes downs suspiciously as if we were all “asymptomatic carriers” of the disease. They told us (the government) to consider every single individual we cross path with to be an asymptomatic carrier… Hence, each time I do go out, I feel like every eyes watch me as they would stare at Dalinar right after he torched the Rift!
It doesn’t help they claimed “runners” were spreading the disease by throwing some saliva balls farther than the required 6 foot of distance asked. Sigh. It also doesn’t help it is freaking cold over here: once we are passed April, one gets tired of needing to dress so much to go outside.
But to help my mood I have downloaded two extra books with a Greek thematic and I have half convinced myself to start scientific research in order to rank those Gods using very… lame criteria. That should cheer me up.
For the Renarins of the world everyone is finally keeping a comfortable distance. Maybe extroverts can now get some idea what it is like to have to live in a world that isn’t made for people like you. Some always have to live that way (and are criticized for not acting like “normal” people. If you can’t do math everybody smiles and says, me too, but if you have trouble saying hello you are just considered rude.)
@Gepeto Even as an introvert I sometimes feel the need to pull up the Muppets Treasure Island Cabin Fever song just to deal with things. I can’t begin to imagine how things are for you.
P.S. I hope the song helps.
@37: OK. I’ll be honest. That literally cracked me up. This was the most deliciously funny and idiotically song ever. I couldn’t help smiling all the way through. Thanks for sharing, that was really thoughtful and yes, it did help. I can’t stop smiling now.
@37 Thanks from me as well. It has now been shared elsewhere in order to spread the joy!